B. Mann Consulting

If elves live forever in LOTR...then why did the "head" elf die in battle in LOTR: The Two Towers???

Well it sure has been a long time since this thread began, and during that time I've gone through LOTR and The Hobbit at least a couple times more, plus the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, and have some more insight.

There is quite a bit in Tolkien's notes that was not included in any of the complete books he read, but the scraps of stories that exist, some as long as thirty pages or more, were put together in Unfinished Tales 1 and 2. The Istari are covered in great detail in Unfinished Tales 1.

So, to begin - the Istari were of a specific hierarchy of the servants of the Valar, who are the order of Gods under Eru, the creator of all. The Valar desired to help the inhabitants of Middle Earth repair the mistakes of which they played a hand in creating, allowing the escape of Melkor, never fully discovering the deep chambers of Angband that housed many of the evil servants of Melkor, hunting down the Baalrogs, etc.

The Valar decided to choose five of the Istari, each sponsored by a member of the Valar, to try and aid the forces of good. The Istari were expressly forbidden to try and use their power in direct opposition to Sauron, whom they were sent to try to help destroy. They would be given corporeal form, so they could suffer life and death, pain, and fatigue, though in truth they would suffer these things far less due to their inner power. They were given bodies in the image of old men, though Men often thought them Elves because of their power.

Originally, Saruman was not corrupt when he came to Middle Earth, and for a long while his counsel helped forces like the Dunedain, the Istari and all foes of Sauron, but Saruman's chief study was the lore of the Rings of Power, and the ways of Sauron.

At the council in which Manwe and the other Valar chose the Istari to send, there is a brief passage in which Tolkien says that Manwe was discussing the power of Saruman, Radaghast and Gandalf, and ranked them in that order according to his wisdom, but Varda looked up at that point and said, about Gandalf, "Not as the third", at which Saruman took notice.

That passage may be the seed of what is later described as the origin of Saruman's turning from the good path he was appointed to. Saruman began to see that Gandalf was of greater power and wisdom than he, and pride, greatest of all sins, began to fill his heart. He, as the head of the Order of the Istari in Middle Earth, began to treat Gandalf and his counsel with increasing contempt as his pride and fear for Gandalf swelled. He began to focus increasingly on learing Sauron's methods and grew a mind of machines, in Ent-speak, and became fearful of Gandalf figuring him out. This, ultimately, is what set him on the dark path. He desired to be master of counsel, and thus began to use the Palantir of Orthanc to glean information of the world. But Sauron also had at least one Palantir and his will was such that he was able to begin to slowly corrupt Saruman to evil ways. Saruman was ever able to remain independent and free of Sauron's dominion, but Sauron so corrupted Saruman that he essentially just became a less-powerful version of Sauron, and everything he did was for evil.

Sauron (changing topic to Sauron here, yes Sauron not Saruman ;) was a bright spirit originally, servant to the Valar, and altogether good. But Melkor corrupted him to evil ways, and eventually when Melkor fled to Angband in Middle Earth, out of Valinor, Sauron followed and survived the wars on Angband. When Melkor was imprisoned, Sauron took over direction of Melkor's affairs. Sauron is definitely more powerful than Gandalf, but he has his tragic flaw, pride and a lust for power, and ultimately he is more powerful, but less wise than Gandalf. I mean - he doesn't forsee that his enemies might try to destroy the One Ring a second time? D'oh!

Saruman is corrupted, yes. Gandalf realizes, when Wormtongue tosses the Orthanc Palantir down at him, that the Palantir may have been Saruman's ultimate downfall. It's mentioned chiefly in LOTR, I don't recall if it's mentioned in the Sil.. or in Unfinished Tales.

Also important to mention is the three Elven rings. Originally, these three Elven rings were, as their namesake implies, given to Elves. Celebrimbor, who forged these rings, discovered Sauron's forging of the One Ring and thus realized that all other rings of power were under Sauron's control. He took counsel with Galadriel and Celeborn in Lorien, and it was there decided that the rings should be destroyed. The Elves couldn't come to destroy them, however, because they "failed to find the strength", just as Isildur failed to find the strength to toss the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom when Sauron was overthrown the first time.

So the Elves decided that the rings should be hidden forever, never revealed to anyone. There are conflicting tales of Galadriel in another key part of the tale of Elves when they lived in the blessed lands in Valinor. But she seems to be descended from the High Elves, and is a very powerful Elf. She is given Nenya, one of the three rings. Gil-galad was entrusted with the two other rings, and in his journeys soon after he gave one to Cirdan, an Elf of tremendous power, who was the only Elf in existence that was permitted by the Valar to sail between Middle Earth and the blessed lands.

So when the Valar organize the five Istari to come to Middle Earth, Cirdan is given the task of sailing them across the waters. And on the journey, he takes note of each of the Istari, and with his great wisdom and keen insight, he sees that Gandalf, who is essentially made to look the least powerful of all, is actually the most powerful and wise of all the Istari. He then hands over his ring to Gandalf, it is called Narya, ring of fires, for in his wisdom he sees that Gandalf will be a great mover and shaker.

Tolkien makes the important distinction with Narya - it is a ring of kindling fire, not destructive fire, in that it can spark the flame of desire for action, union, and thus can be used to bring cohesion among individuals and separate groups. So with this knowledge, we begin to see how it is that Gandalf is such a central and important figure in the war of the Ring of Power, how he motivates Frodo to make for Bree, how he makes the Dunedain protect the Shire, how he convinces the Ents to take sides in the human wars against Saruman and Sauron, and all other deeds in which he brings peoples together.

The third ring is kept by Gil-galad, but he is slain in the war of the Last Alliance against the forces of Sauron, the first attempt at destroying Sauron where Isildur cuts the ring finger from Sauron and thus rids Middle Earth of him for a long while, and in turn becomes owner of the One Ring. So Gil-galad's ring goes to Elrond, master of Rivendel, and also an Elf of powerful lineage, as he is a direct descendent of the union of King Thingol, an Elf, and Melian, a Maia, so that line of Elves was more powerful than most others, with the blood and power of a Maia in them.

Phew, long message. Did I ever say that the Anonymous post above is me? I was new to passwords and accounts back then.  :jawdrop:

To Boris' post, yes, Sauriman was one of the wizards, and was corrupted, albiet indirectly, by the power of the Ring and Sauron himself. One of Tolkien's universal truths is that anyone is corruptible. Remember Gandalf refusing to take the ring?
Thank goodness for those stalwart hobbits.

To anonymous above - I completely agree that PJ did not do the Ents justice. Not by a long shot - imagine an ent being tricked and bullied by mere hobbits!

However, I disagree with your statement about Tom Bombadill. I could see a Tom Bombadill movie that the hobbits and Rangers wander in and out of. But he doesn't really belong in LOTR. It's great in the book - the more of Middle Earth, the better. But Bombadill would have taken the movie too far off course.

If he was also a wizard/Istari, like Gandalf, was he just corrupted? I guess the easy answer is "yes". This also seems to point to the fact that true "humans" can't do magic at all. That is, wizards are in fact a different race. I seem to recall something about the men from the West, from which Aragorn is descended, who are, again, something more than human that have some magic.

Elves are inherently magical, and dwarves seem to have skill with creating magical items.

Interesting that the Balrog is also a higher being -- Tolkien doesn't ever seem to mention an underworld or demons, just good and evil "gods".

Why can't the Nazgul ever find anything? "Well, there's definitely something down there in the swamp, but I can't seem to find it, so I'll just leave...".

Okay - one thing I've always wondered about. What are the strategic planning sessions like with Sauron and the Nazgul? Imagine them sitting around a table, deciding whether to launch their attack on Wednesday or Thursday.

Boris, Dave Smith and I were discussing the relative ranking of Gandalf and Sauron. I really couldn't remember, so looked it up in the Silmarillion.
Gandalf (Mithrandir) is one of the Istari or Wizards, a special group sent across the sea from the West to act as a force of good. That, and the fact they pretty much live forever, is all Tolkien has to say.
Sauron, on the other hand, is a true demigod. Greatest of the servants of Melkor (whom I'd call a god in the GrecoRoman sense), Sauron is a Maiar - one of the first beings (Ainur) created by the One god Iluvatar. The Maiar are demigods, servants to the gods, called Valar.
Little known fact - the Balrog is also a Maiar, so Gandalf does pretty well to take out a demigod in one on one battle.